Interview with Laurence Jurdem, The Rough Rider and the Professor

Jerry Landry (he/him) (00:02.48)
Lawrence, thank you so much for joining us today.

laurence Jurdem (00:06.114)
Jerry, I so appreciate being on your podcast. I follow you on Twitter. I see that you probably know more about presidents than certainly myself and probably most people. And I wanna commend you for all of the work that you do in trying to get these incredible individuals across to the public and enhance their knowledge. It's really, I know for you, it's a passion and a labor of love. It's also, in my view, a public service. So thank you so much for doing that.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (00:36.24)
Well, thank you so much for your kind words and congratulations on the publication of your book. And for our listeners, the book is the Rough Rider and the professor, Theodore Roosevelt, Henry Cabot Lodge, and the friendship that changed American history. And I highly recommend I will have information about the book on the website around the release of this episode. But just to get us started and talking about, and I mean,

both of these folks, T.R. and Henry Cabot Lodge are two amazing figures in their own right and to be able to talk about them together and to talk about this relationship that, you know, as you illustrate in your book, really did impact the course of American history around the turn of the century. So to get us started and especially since...

You know, I know our listeners probably know more about Theodore Roosevelt than Henry Cabot Lodge. So I wanted to start with a question about Lodge because though you cite historian Henry Adams, the grandson and great-grandson of the two Adams presidents as being quote, responsible for giving Lodge his first taste in the combat, in the combative world of Republican politics, you also note that quote,

Adams feared that by exposing Lodge to the competitive atmosphere of the political arena, he had set his young friend on a course that could only lead to ruin. So Lawrence, would you mind talking a bit about Adams' influence on Lodge and what role, if any, you see the challenges that his ancestors faced in the political arena as having in Henry Adams' viewpoints on entering political life?

laurence Jurdem (02:27.454)
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting because first of all, Henry Adams is just one of the great characters in American history. He is, I mean, I believe one of the great correspondents, one of the great letter writers of the age, if not the Gilded Age, if not all ages. I think that if you read any of his correspondences and they're all fortunately available in several books, you really feel as if you're at a...

wonderful dinner party, eavesdropping on all of the gossip and infighting and sort of snickety and snarky behavior and opinions that Henry Adams had. But Henry Adams was also, as you said, a distinguished

fellow, he came from a distinguished lineage of being related to both John and John Quincy Adams. And he came across Henry Cabot Lodge's screen when Lodge was a student at Harvard. And Adams was teaching a course on American colonial history. Lodge was in the process of obtaining a PhD.

in history from Harvard. He was one of the first men to achieve that goal. And Lange and Adams took a liking to one another. I mean, obviously their lineages were very similar. They were both Bostonians. They were both New Englanders. They were both, you know, very mercurial characters, very suspect of anybody who sort of perhaps was not in their social

social milieu, so to speak, and they could be quite critical of people like that. Lodge had lost his father when he was a very, very young man. And it was a blow that he admitted in his memoir called My Early Life that never really healed. And Henry Adams sort of served as a surrogate father for him. And when Adams was on, I'm sorry, when Lodge was on honeymoon with his wife, Nanny,

laurence Jurdem (04:46.282)
Uh, he wrote, uh, Henry Adams asking basically, you know, what should I do? What should I do next? I've graduated Harvard. I have plenty of money. I've got a growing family, but I don't seem to have any, uh, any goal, any direction. What do you think I should do? And Henry Adams initially suggested that, that Adams should, that the lodge should pursue a life in academia, which is what a lodge

basically did. He also obtained a degree from Harvard Law School as well. There was a lot of Harvard degrees up there on that wall. But Adams was also very politically active. He was a Republican in the Lincoln idea, a radical Republican, someone who was very unhappy with the state of government society. He had, as you said, grown up.

around stories and indeed around John Quincy and the stories of John Adams. And there was this idea back in the early days, the Republic of Virtue, the idea that men who were elected to office should possess a sense of integrity, possess a certain level of disinterest. And by disinterest, I mean they're not swayed by one opinion or another.

They weren't swayed by money or any other sort of entitlements. So Adams very much believed in this in this idea. And so he's existing in the Gilded Age, which is a bastion of corruption, temptation, vice. There are scandals every day.

There was of course the very famous credit mobilari scandal, the railroad scandal, which tarred so many Republicans during the Gilded Age about railroad kickbacks and favors done for corporate titans, including the 1884 nominee of the party, James Blaine. And so I think it was very difficult for Henry Adams to exist within this climate. He was vehemently opposed to anyone.

laurence Jurdem (07:02.61)
occupying the office of the presidency who didn't possess some sense of virtue and integrity. He was worried when Henry Cabot Lodge became involved in politics because Lodge found it so exciting and he loved the strategy behind it and he loved the sort of everything, you know, being at the center of things from a political point of view. And he was worried that Lodge would get snake bitten in a sense and that poison of vanity.

and power would seduce him to the point that it could well lead him on a road to ruin. And I think that was something that Henry Adams had seen because he had been living in Washington for decades. He had seen politicians come and go, watched them rise and fall. And he had a great fondness for Henry Cabot Lodge and even more of a fondness for his wife Nanny and for their children.

I think he felt in a way out of step with the times because he had grown up with the virtues or the stories of the virtues of the Adamses. And he looked at the world around him and saw that this was a world that either no longer existed or was quickly falling into disrepair. And so he was very concerned that Lodge would take the shortcut to power, which would.

lead him on a road to ruin that could never be repaired.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (08:34.136)
Absolutely. And I think that's one of the most fascinating things that I found in your book is how you, you really help the readers to understand that these figures, you, you really put them in the historical place of helping us to understand. You know, this is Gilded Age politics. This is a time where there is so much.

corruption and talk of corruption. And then you've got these figures like Henry Adams, Henry Cabot Lodge and Theodore Roosevelt coming up. And in some ways as a response to this, and especially like with Henry Adams and for our listeners, you, you well know we've been talking about the Adams family for quite a while already on the podcast. And as you can hear here, we're going to be talking about the Adams family for quite a while more.

But to have them kind of in this space is just, I think that's really powerful and really helpful in understanding them and their motivations and, and how these careers come about.

laurence Jurdem (09:49.17)
Yes, it's very interesting. You know, there is this kind of contradiction, I think, with particularly people like Henry Cabot Lodge, who did possess that virtue, did possess that sense of integrity. But then there was also the Lodge who wanted that political success, who was wary of the Democratic Party taking control and all of the sort of ill results that he believed that party.

could bring and so integrity was enormously important to Henry Cabot Lodge, but winning was also very important. I think you might be able to draw a similar parallel to the elder George Bush who had a great deal of personal integrity, whose intentions were excellent, but in order

to rule, he had to win power in order to do that. And that's kind of the way Henry Cabot Lodge viewed things. He believed that he was destined because of this incredible family that he came out of with George Cabot, his ancestor being the first Senator from Massachusetts and being an ally of Hamilton, et cetera. And Lodge believed that he naturally deserved a seat.

at the table of government and leadership and political power. But in order to get there, he needed to win office. And he was not a natural politician. He had a terrible speaking voice, which he himself described as something similar to a dentist's drill. And he also was described as someone who had a voice that sounded like the tearing of a bedsheet. And I encourage your

listeners to go online and you can actually listen to Henry Cabot Lodge and a few comments about the League of Nations in 1919 and it really does sound like a drill, I want to say, you know, and it just sounds just like that. But Lodge, you know, I think had to reconcile these two sides that politics is no bean bag as John McCain used to say and it's a difficult road and in order to

Jerry Landry (he/him) (11:42.533)
Heheheheh

laurence Jurdem (11:59.458)
do good things, you need to get into positions of power. And Lodge had to do what he had to do when he tried to play above board. But he, God knows, most a lot of the time, had no problem, when his teeth were bare, he had no problem going for the jugular. And he did that plenty of times in his road to success.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (12:22.928)
Well, and it's interesting and especially thinking of that time. And this is something that we've talked about in the podcast in previous decades. You know, throughout your book, you talk about the blending of the worlds in Washington, the political and the social sphere, and you know, that's at the time as well as in previous eras, that was so that blending was important and.

could be influential in the rise of new political figures. And so how important of a role do you think that their navigation in the social sphere played in the respective rise of Lodge and Roosevelt in the American political schema?

laurence Jurdem (13:07.254)
Well, I think it was very important for Henry Cabot Lodge. And I think we have to go back to the, for Lodge anyway, the disastrous convention of 1884, where he had been selected as a delegate to choose the nominee of the Republican Party. And as I said earlier in 1884, James G. Blaine, the marvelous man from Maine, was nominated

by the party or was set to be nominated by the party. And neither Lodge nor Roosevelt wanted Blaine as the party's choice because of this stain of corruption that existed around him. And both men were unhappy with Blaine, but they both had been selected by their respective delegations to vote.

the way their delegates wanted them to vote and or the way the convention Republicans chose to vote and they ended up choosing Blaine, which both of them were incredibly unhappy about, but both realized they wanted a seat at the political table that they could not go outside the Republican Party and do something that the Republican Party didn't like because that in the end would lead to political oblivion which neither

at the beginning of their careers would want to happen. But when Lodge chose to nominate Blaine, which he did because he was running for Congress at the same time on the Republican ticket, and he knew if he had chosen to nominate someone else, that would, you know, that was a non-starter and he wouldn't get anywhere. But

those who occupied the kind of hallowed halls of Beacon Hill and who he had grown up with and were close friends of Lodge in Boston took quite an exception to what Lodge did and they ostracized him from Boston society and he really became persona non grata at places like the Somerset Club and on Beacon Hill and other Boston Athenaeum etc and other places and so when he finally wins his congressional seat

laurence Jurdem (15:18.238)
and moves to Washington. It's like a breath of fresh air. Nanny Lodge was a marvelous social organizer. She was very much a doyan within the social sphere of Washington. She knew everyone as did her husband. Both had come from Boston. Nanny Lodge.

had close relationships with various diplomatic figures and others who had known her father when he was head of the Naval Observatory in Washington. And so they had an end there as did Henry Cabot Lodge who knew every single prominent Bostonian who lived in DC. And so they were able to immediately adapt to the

social world of Washington and by not only having a fantastic time, but also achieving these incredible connections that would serve him well in the years to come. For TR, Lodge was the entree to everything. Roosevelt had come to Washington when he had been selected to serve on the Civil

administration and Benjamin Harrison, a position that Lodge had arranged for Roosevelt because he so believed Roosevelt had a rendezvous with destiny to achieve greatness in the political arena. And Lodge was just determined to get in there. And so Lodge worked it like, like the great politician that he was to achieve a position for Roosevelt. Once Roosevelt arrived in Washington, Nanny opened all the

social doors for him and he immediately adapted and loved it as TR always did when he had the opportunity to embrace large amounts of people. So the Washington setting and Washington society, because of the fact it was such a small community, because so many people were like Lodge, young and on the make, it was a perfect setting for both men to achieve their path to power.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (17:34.388)
Well, it's interesting because, you know, as we're talking about that social sphere and how it impacted their political, their respective political rise and, you know, how Lodge kind of served as that opening doors for Roosevelt. One of the things that I think you do a great job of illustrating in your book is that their relationship wasn't just a political one.

It was very much a social relationship and it wasn't just the two men, but their families were so close. And so can you talk more about the women in the two men's lives, their spouses? So you'd already mentioned Nanny Lodge, but then also Alice Lee Roosevelt and Edith Roosevelt.

laurence Jurdem (18:25.482)
Yeah, and thanks for the question, Jerry, because you're probably the first podcast host I've had who actually asked me to elaborate on the women in these men's lives. And I've actually, I think I enjoyed writing more about Nanny Lodge than I did about anybody. And I always say, you know, in talks that I give, how disappointing it is that you can't find a really fabulous picture of Nanny Lodge because she was such a great beauty.

but she was such a shy woman and in her own way, very introverted and someone who really didn't love the spotlight. I mean, it reminds me of a story that John Singer Sargent had wanted to paint her desperately. And if you go to the National Portrait Gallery, you'll see two paintings by Sargent of Lodge, Henry Cabot Lodge and Theodore Roosevelt, but Nanny Lodge just said no repeatedly and that painting was never done.

I think both Edith Roosevelt and Nanny Lodge were critical in the success of their husbands. Nanny Lodge actually wrote a letter to Corinne Roosevelt Robinson, T.R.'s sister and her great friend, saying that Henry Cabot Lodge would have succeeded on his own without any help from anybody. And that's just completely not true. Nanny Lodge was her husband's...

a great advisor when it came to all things written or literary. She would read a speech that he wrote, and if she didn't like it, he'd tear it up, throw it in the fire and start it over again. And he did that on one occasion, at least three times for a very kind of minor speech that he delivered in Massachusetts. She read all of his books, she critiqued them, she read all of his lectures, she critiqued them.

She was the one who organized the dinners. She was the one who organized the parties. She was the one who made the connections. She was the one who James Blaine absolutely adored to the point that Theodore Roosevelt was actually fairly, came fairly close to working for him as Assistant Secretary of State. Theodore Roosevelt, the same man who had vehemently opposed James Blaine, and it was because of Nanny's great

laurence Jurdem (20:50.53)
beauty, charm, intellect that James Bullion actually reached out to her saying, do you know someone who could perhaps be an assistant secretary of state? And she said, Theodore Roosevelt is your man. And she and Cabot both tried to get Roosevelt that position, but it failed. But Nanny Lodge stood by.

her husband and God knows it was not an easy marriage as I as I discuss in the book and I think Henry Cabot Lodge, while being a terrific intellect and a real aggressive and hard scrabble politician and someone who I came to really admire because of the fact he did not possess that great charisma or ability that the TR did, but he could be a difficult, a difficult dude.

And I think Nanny suffered quite a bit for it. But she stuck right with him, even though there are rumors, as I discuss in the book, and go into great detail about the possible affair she may or may not have had with John Hay while Cabot was off campaigning for re-election. Edith Roosevelt as well, another critical woman who wouldn't have, who really, I think,

played an enormous role in helping TR succeed. We all know about TR, this phenomenal personality and this incredible energy and the man who had something like six cups of coffee in the morning before he went to work and six and a half a dozen eggs in the morning before he went to work and the guy who ran practically everywhere from one room or one meeting to the next. But he also was a guy who's

Temperament could be very erratic. He could be incredibly upbeat or he could be incredibly pessimistic and argumentative and difficult, particularly when his career wasn't going well. And a lot of, and for most of the time, really up until he became president, I think he just was constantly frustrated about people who just wouldn't let him do what he wanted to do.

laurence Jurdem (23:06.382)
And that's why I think TR never could have had any other job except be president of the United States and be really truly happy. But Edith Roosevelt really did her best to sort of try to contain that sort of depressive quality that often would come over him. And she constantly encouraged him as did Lodge. In fact, that I think is one of the great qualities and benefits of that friendship is that both men

one another during good times and bad. And both women did the same, no matter how difficult their personal relationships with their respective husbands might've been.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (23:48.032)
Well, and it's interesting because I've done some research on Roosevelt's, definitely looking forward to doing more. But to me, it just seems like Edith was such a great match for Theodore trying to help to really balance him out. And trying and...

It just seems like she plays such a key role in his development. And I really wonder if Alice hadn't passed away, you know, would he have had that support from her that he got from Edith when they were married?

laurence Jurdem (24:30.566)
Yeah, it's interesting. And I recall Edmund Morris in an interview, the late Edmund Morris talking about the fact that TR would have been really stifled if he had been, if Alice had not, if the marriage had lasted longer than it did. Because I think Alice Roosevelt was very much about, or Alice Hathaway Lee, forgive me, Alice Roosevelt was very much about the social life of New York, very much about

the parties, the people, just living kind of a, you know, a whirling dervish kind of life of cocktails and dinners and receptions and was not much of an intellect where he was really was an intellect she was very knowledgeable about very knowledgeable about literature and that was in fact one of the qualities that tied she and Cabot.

laurence Jurdem (25:28.95)
pieces of literature. And that was one of the things that I think made her so comfortable about Cabot Lodge. And she was very savvy, a very savvy individual, not only about social, be it dinners or social, the social world of Washington, but also about the sort of men and individuals that surrounded her husband.

laurence Jurdem (25:58.93)
was desperately concerned about money all of her life, mainly coming from the time she was a young girl where her father, who was a near-do-well and a drunkard, had essentially literally made the family homeless to the point where they were going from one relative to another relying on the kindness of strangers, so to speak. And she was always desperately worried that TR would become consumed with

with one job or another that would never really pay the rent and she would be, and he and the family would be completely destitute. And Lord knows there were moments where, between the destruction of his cattle business, between the various depressions that wrecked his stock portfolio, where God knows that was somewhat close to happen, or certainly in her world, it was a reality that she never could not think about.

But I think she gave TR that intellectual partner, not only intellectual partner, but someone who had real spine, who didn't bend if he was a little blustery or argumentative. She would push right back and she adored him and he didn't always treat her well. I mean, leaving her often alone in Sagamore Hill, pregnant with one child after another.

But she adored him and had adored him ever since she saw him when she was a child. So we should be very grateful for Edith Roosevelt in helping navigate TR until the sort of man that he became.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (27:41.604)
And likewise, we're grateful to you for being able to share more about these figures. And I think that's one thing, and especially with a figure like Theodore Roosevelt, who is such a larger than life figure, sometimes the other people in his life just don't get as much attention. And, but I think it's key. And that's, I think something that listeners of this podcast enjoy is that.

It's good to be able to go into these other figures' lives and try and understand the role that they played because I don't think you get a full picture of Theodore Roosevelt or Cabot without thinking about Nanny and without thinking about Edith. I really think that it's key to understanding them.

laurence Jurdem (28:30.014)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's very true. I mean, Roosevelt loved to use that phrase. I rose like a rocket, but you could say he didn't rise alone. I mean, Cabot was really responsible for lighting that fuse, which launched that rocket and not only launching the rocket, but directing it to key moments and key opportunities that allowed TR to rise.

the ranks of politics in 18 years from 1882 or 1883 when he first started in politics all the way up to 1901. And it really, without Cabot, I would doubt he would have risen as quickly. I don't doubt that TR would have become president. I just think it wouldn't have happened as quickly as it did without the help of HCL.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (29:20.824)
Absolutely. And turning to Cabot for a moment, because we want to talk about one of the key things in his career, because you discussed in your work, the Lodge bill, which would have empowered, quote, the federal government to oversee the integrity of congressional elections. So can you help the audience to understand this bill and its ultimate defeat in the context of the political situation of the time and what it says about this point in Lodge's

laurence Jurdem (29:50.154)
Well, it's sort of the bill on the surface is one could say very humanitarian and very much sort of ahead of its time. And on the surface, it was a bill that was primarily created to help African Americans gain agency in terms of achieving the right to vote. I mean, during this period, we had the Democratic solid South, which obviously

did not look kindly on African Americans, did everything it could do to prevent African Americans from not voting. And Lodge believed that this was hurting the Republican party. He did not think it was hurting African Americans. That's not why he did it. I mean, we can sort of sit here and lax all the...

sympathetic or romantic about HCL's motives. But the fact of the matter is both he and Roosevelt took a dim view of African-Americans. They did not think that they were intellectually adequate or equivalent to white Americans, that they did not have the ability to sort of exercise any kind of sophistication in their own affairs. And so...

While indeed this bill certainly would have helped African-Americans go to the polls and vote, Lodge did it because he knew that African-Americans were a prominent part of the Republican Party, and this would help break the solid South in terms of elections, giving the Republicans greater control of the Congress. This was an idea that the Southern Democrats called the force bill.

which was sort of a nickname for yet again, what they viewed as more government encroachment and essentially an encroachment on quote unquote there, the states, the rights of the individual states. Lodge was very passionate about this bill, but, and one would think that the Republican Party at this time being the party of Lincoln, being the party of

laurence Jurdem (32:13.206)
President Grant would have focused on trying to put its money where its mouth was, trying to improve the political life of African Americans, but instead it was more important for the Republican Party to focus on the economics of the time, the tariff of the time, which was one of the dominant means of Republican success at that particular time. And so they chose to focus on a bill.

that was sponsored by the young William McKinley, rather than focus on Lodge's bill. So in the end, the bill went nowhere and it really stung Henry Cabot Lodge. Henry Cabot Lodge did not like people to say no to him. He didn't like being defeated. He didn't like people who said no. He didn't like people who said, you know, we'll try it again. We'll come back later. I mean, it really, quote unquote, pissed him off. And it would, it would.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (33:09.181)
I'm going to go to bed.

laurence Jurdem (33:13.146)
Lodge could be very angry. You know, I think he had a deep-seated anger that at times could really drive him to metaphorically push back on people who chose to dismiss him. And a lot of that had to do with this vanity that he possessed, you know, that he had come from this fabulous American family, that he was destined for greatness, how dare you step in front of...

what I'm trying to do to serve the best interests of the nation. And really, these things that happened, these defeats and disappointments, could really sit inside him for a long time and make him a really disagreeable person to be around. TR, in fact, went and talked to him about possibly

uh, giving a kind of giving a benefit talk for a friend of theirs. And they said, well, you know, you can talk about the lodge bill. And then, and logic was like, you know, get out of here. I don't want to see you. I don't want to hear about this. Um, so, so lodge was not someone, as I said, you, you want, you didn't want to get on his bad side there. He was a devoted friend, as we can tell with this study of, of he and Roosevelt. And he was.

devoted friend to those who stuck by him during the tumultuous year of 1884. If you crossed him, he was not an enemy that you wanted to have because he'd make your life a living hell. And I'm, I'm saying this pretty confidently. I just really believe this. I mean, look what he did to Woodrow Wilson during the league of nations. I mean, he really, he didn't like Wilson and he didn't like the league of nations. And you know, he was going to have things go his way, regardless of

Jerry Landry (he/him) (34:53.524)
Thanks for watching!

laurence Jurdem (35:02.771)
of what he had to do.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (35:05.116)
Yeah. And it's interesting. And I think you do an excellent job of highlighting this in your book. You know, in this political rise of Lodge, you know, he does suffer some pretty big setbacks towards the beginning and, and the Lodge bill was also one of those setbacks. But then you get to a point and when he starts to have that influence and is able to start opening some doors for.

Roosevelt and helping with his rise. And you start to see some of the areas that he was in, in Roosevelt likewise was also able to influence. And so one of the things that you mentioned in your book is you note how both Lodge and Roosevelt were ardent expansionists in their, in terms of their views of foreign policy. So Lawrence, what sense do you have of the popularity of expansionism within the Republican party circles?

As well as the nation as a whole in the mid to late 1890s, were Lodge and Roosevelt kind of on the, on the fringe of that are, were they more, was it more popular?

laurence Jurdem (36:13.618)
I think they were on the fringe. I think this was something that was not popular in the Republican Party per se. It was not terribly popular in the country. We are sort of living in a similar time today where there is a conflict within the Republican Party about whether we focus on our affairs at home or use our resources and power to...

achieve greater democracy and freedom for others. Henry Cabot Lodge and Theodore Roosevelt believed in the greatness of the United States. They were what we would call American exceptionalists to the hilt. They believed that the United States had a destiny, that it was very much, as Ronald Reagan said, a city on a hill, that it had a great role to play.

in the history of the world and it needed to achieve a certain prominence internationally. And obviously when the book Admiral Mahan's book came out talking about the influence of sea power on world history, this was sort of the kind of bone that TR and Lodge needed to grab onto. And because it said exactly what Lodge and Roosevelt believed that

that navies were ultimately the, the core, the opportunity that giving the Nick, I'm sorry, forgive me, I'm getting all tangled up, but giving it, the Navy gives a nation an opportunity to stake its claim out in say the Pacific or the Atlantic. And that's how all these great empires had achieved success and Lodge and Roosevelt believed

This is what the United States needed to do. We needed to stake a claim in the Pacific, not only for defensive purposes, but also for international trade and economics. And so when the opportunity to intervene to help Cuba in its conflict with Spain came along and with the help of William Randolph Hearst and other.

laurence Jurdem (38:35.506)
yellow journalists talking about the turmoil that was occurring in Cuba. Lodge and Roosevelt really knew that they had an opportunity with ideas like acquiring Hawaii and really kind of expanding the nation's arms, so to speak, and wings essentially to establish this opportunity. But like anything else.

If you think about any kind of international conflict, big business was not in favor of something like that within the United States, because war destabilizes economies and creates massive problems. And people who were the money men in the Republican Party were very, very critical of what Lodge was doing. And frankly, Lodge didn't care.

He really didn't care. As far as he was concerned, those who believed pocketbooks were more important than patriotism had no business telling him anything. And Roosevelt believed the same thing.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (39:45.4)
Absolutely. And, and you mentioned, and especially, you know, talking about pocketbooks and, um, economy and kind of going, you know, you mentioned the Navy. And you really see, you know, Roosevelt really returns to that idea of military preparedness time and again, during the course of his career in national politics.

So would you mind talking about how his experiences in the Spanish-American war influences later viewpoints on the subject? Because I think that's one of the things in your book, you, you help us to understand that this was not only a key moment in terms of his political rise, but also potentially in his political thinking.

laurence Jurdem (40:31.422)
Yeah, no, Roosevelt was an ardent expansionist. He believed that, as I said again, that America had a great destiny to play in the world, that if American ideas could be translated and transferred around the world, it would make the world more safe and more secure. And obviously, military preparedness to prevent any sort of encroachment.

by foreign powers, particularly those like Germany and Britain and other empires, was something that Roosevelt and Lodge took very seriously. And he was always very, very concerned that these European empires were looking for the opportunity to encroach upon American territory. And so that's why he was always talking about, we need to be prepared.

We need to enhance our military. We need to re-outfit our Navy. All of these different things. And you see this when we get to the First World War. And Woodrow Wilson's continual refusal to focus on military preparedness. And it drove Lodge and Roosevelt completely crazy. And so Lodge and Roosevelt really, from the time the war began.

started this campaign along with the Cabot's son-in-law about saying how critical it is for the U.S. to be prepared for war, that our military resources were lacking, they hadn't been re-outfitted or replenished since the Spanish-American War, and Roosevelt was constantly writing letters and talking about this.

with his friends and with Lodge, as well as his own desire to return to the battlefield, leading a regiment during the First World War as he had with the Rough Riders during the Spanish-American War. And Roosevelt was constantly obsessed with achieving success on the battlefield, something I believe came of because his late father chose to hire substitutes to fight in the Civil War.

laurence Jurdem (42:53.394)
that his mother had been very, very passionate about, desperately afraid that her husband was going to have one or essentially several potential confrontations with her Southern relatives, which was something that she couldn't bear. And in the end, TR Senior, to his regret, I think acquiesced and TR Junior, their son, never forgot this.

And in fact, he writes in his memoir, he never brings up that his father didn't serve, but he does say when he talks about the Spanish-American war, I didn't have to hire someone else to do my fighting for me. So this was sort of a something Roosevelt was always trying to exercise from his system. And I don't think he ever really got it out of his system because of the anger he displayed after he was turned down.

for serving in the first World War, the frustration rather that occurred.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (43:56.912)
Absolutely. Well, and it's interesting, you know, the Spanish American war, of course, his service is, is the rough riders. That really launches him into the place that would ultimately, you know, as we know, with hindsight, that would ultimately lead him to the presidency. But Lawrence, would you mind sharing more about

TR's desire for the presidency and his reluctance to accept that vice presidential nomination in 1900, as well as Lodge's constant lobbying for him to accept the role of VP. That was, that was a really fascinating part of your book. And so I'd love for you to be able to share some more about that with the audience.

laurence Jurdem (44:43.526)
Yeah, when we get to, obviously after the Spanish American War, Roosevelt is the queen of the prom, so to speak, or as Alice Roosevelt Longworth used to say, you know, the bride at every wedding, the corpse at every funeral, he's sort of the center of the world at that moment. And Lodge, in fact, communicates to him in a letter, well, you can basically, because of this incredible performance you've had, you can more or less ask for anything that you want.

And Lodge wanted desperately for Roosevelt to serve in the Senate with him, but that opportunity was closed off. And by the time Lodge even attempted to think about it or discuss the idea, the idea of Roosevelt being nominated or, and or elected for governor of New York had already surfaced and Lodge Roosevelt loved being governor of New York. It was exactly kind of what he.

wanted. He had the opportunity to be a chief executive where he was the one making the decisions and he was the one creating new legislation to focus on the urban poor or on the environment or pushing back on the corporate titans of the Gilded Age. The problem was that during the Gilded Age, of course, you had the, it was still the time of political

Thomas Platt, known as the easy boss, because it was very kind of quiet, demure, decorum, but still a man who could exercise a tremendous amount of power, wasn't keen about what Theodore Roosevelt was doing. In fact, I think Roosevelt was never really comfortable in the Republican Party, or certainly the Republican Party of Henry Cabot Lodge and Thomas Platt.

Um, because he was always suggesting that the Republican party do things that it essentially went against their political interests to do. And so by the time you get to 1900 and, uh, president McKinley's, uh, vice president passes away, uh, Lodge is passionately, uh, lobbying TR to, uh, take, uh, the vacant spot on the ticket in 1900.

laurence Jurdem (47:05.13)
Um, Roosevelt is apprehensive about this idea. Uh, he wants to remain as governor, but he knows it's not going to happen because Platt quote unquote wants to get that bastard out of New York. Um, and he's doing everything he can to, uh, manipulate the situation so that Roosevelt will really have no choice, but to take the vice presidency. But

Roosevelt doesn't want the vice presidency. You know, as John Nance Garner said, Roosevelt basically viewed it as a warm bucket of spit. You know, there was nothing for him to do. He was, and he would be in a gilded cage with nothing to do, sit in this beautiful office and just sit there while the wheels of government turned round and round without him having any kind of involvement. Edith didn't want him.

to take the position either. She knew that this lack of activity could send his personality into a tailspin. Bami Roosevelt, his devoted sister, actually had an argument with Henry Cabot Lodge over this at his at her house in Washington, where she basically more or less threw Cabot out of the house when he accused her of being basically out of her head and talking nonsense about how

would waste away in a position like this. But in the end, there was nowhere else for Roosevelt to go. Lodge was not confident what might happen, except for the fact that it set up Roosevelt for the presidency in 1904. But between 1900 and 1904, Cabot just said, well, you'll just have to deal with it, and things will be OK. And of course,

When Roosevelt accepts that nomination and accepts that opportunity, Cabot writes this very interesting letter, which is almost very foreboding and very prescient, where he says, you know, no one can tell what will happen in four years. And boy was Henry Cabot Lodge right on that particular point.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (49:12.236)
Absolutely. And that's one of the things, you know, with the new series that we just started on the vice presidencies of the United States, you know, we're going to come to some figures who I think are well suited to the vice presidency and can assert their influence without necessarily being at the center of everything, but Theodore Roosevelt is not one of those people. And so it's, it

It's interesting to think about if, if he had a full term as vice president, what that would have looked like. But of course, you know, as we know, history played out differently and he ended up being at the center of everything as president. And like you said, Lawrence, it just, it seems like that was the position that really, that was the best position for somebody like Theodore Roosevelt.

laurence Jurdem (50:12.134)
Yes, I, you know, the whole vice presidential situation, Roosevelt was really was, you know, like a, you know, kind of a wild animal in a in a cage. I mean, he or a tiger in a cage, he couldn't do anything. He couldn't go anywhere. He couldn't exercise any power at all in a way.

It was like Lyndon Johnson being vice president under JFK, this man of incredible personality and charisma and power and an understanding of how politics worked, yet he was locked away in this beautiful room where he could do virtually nothing. And he said, oh, I like President McKinley, T.R. says I enjoy conversing with him, but they just won't.

give me anything to do. And so he, of course, would do little things. He would hold conferences. He would go spend time at Sagamore Hill. He'd write letters. He believed his political career was over, as Alice Lee, I'm sorry, Alice Longworth wrote, that basically his professional career was finished. And I think it probably pained Cabot.

as well, because he saw this incredible, vivacious friend of his basically just depressed and just kind of nothing, you know, after all of this effort that he had put into to try to achieve some kind of success.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (51:54.492)
Well, and it's interesting because the influence that Cabot had on Roosevelt's career and rise up to that point. And then when he becomes president, as you note in your book, there's kind of this shift because now Theodore Roosevelt is the one who has the most power. And you note in your book that Lodge's influence over

President Roosevelt was overstated by opponents of the Roosevelt administration, but he still did play a role both as a leader in Congress and of the national party, as well as serving as a diplomatic representative in negotiations with Britain in 1903. So would you mind discussing how Lodge fits into the history of Theodore Roosevelt's presidency?

laurence Jurdem (52:47.762)
Yeah, no, it was a very, it was an interesting thing. There had always been this gossip going way back about the firm of Lodge and Roosevelt, meaning Lodge was always the senior man. Roosevelt was the inexperienced junior man. And even in the letters, if you if you kind of examine them from 1884, up, really up until the

maybe even into the vice presidency, there is this desperation on the part of Theodore Roosevelt to get back in the game, find an opportunity, find a way to maneuver, and he was always asking Cabot to help him do that. Do you know of this, if this is available? Keep me in mind for that. Don't forget about your friend in New York who's just

hanging out here doing nothing while you're making your way up the political ladder. But then once Roosevelt becomes president, there is what I say in my book, a changing of the guard, there is a shift there and it's a big shift. And I think the best example was a conversation that Roosevelt had with a journalist at the time he initially took.

the oath of office. And this gentleman said, well, Mr. President, we're all kind of wondering in Washington what is the relationship gonna be like now that you're president in terms of Senator Lodge? Everybody knows that you're both very close and many people, and I'm paraphrasing here, think that Lodge has this sort of carte blanche to the White House where he can come and go as he pleases. And...

you know, make requests and demands, et cetera. And, you know, it was really kind of controlling a lot of things. And Roosevelt, you know, with Iliad, without missing a beat, looked at this journalist and said, look, you don't understand. That's not our relationship at all. Lodge does not run me, I run him. And I think that says a lot about the frustration that Roosevelt had, not so much maybe with Cabot, but with this image that

laurence Jurdem (55:05.794)
Cabot was somebody who was controlling a lot. Even back in 1884, there were rumors that Henry Cabot Lodge had this type of Spangali-like influence on Theodore Roosevelt, and both men actually laughed about it. Lodge actually said, you know, you couldn't pressure Theodore Roosevelt to do anything that he didn't wanna do. And...

Roosevelt actually wrote a letter to Nanny where he kind of turned, he created kind of a sort of, uh, kind of created an informal newspaper in the way he, he wrote the letter with a headline saying, Oh, the evil Cabot Lodge has this hypnotic effect over the young and unassuming Roosevelt, you know? And so they thought it was very funny, but you know, now we're in the presidency and it's the big time and it's not so funny anymore. But

Roosevelt still loved having Cabot and Nanny around. I mean, as you said, he consulted with Lodge on foreign policy, particularly in regards to the Russo-Japanese War. They still had dinner together. Both men enjoyed horseback riding. Speaking of, you know, we talked about commonalities at the beginning, and both men rode quite a bit together in Rock Creek Park. They took walks. Lodge was always very...

interested in what was going on, but he still wanted to have his hand in the game. And Roosevelt didn't always allow that to happen. Um, and, and it's sort of interesting because, um, uh, going back to the beginning of the podcast, when we were talking about virtue and integrity, Roosevelt did not want to be viewed as some kind of, of corrupt politician who was being

Uh, you know, who was offering and giving political favors and exchange for power because everybody, you know, would have assumed, Oh, well, Cabot did make the man president, he is sitting on that phone, uh, which was a big cartoon in the Boston globe where Henry Cabot Lodge was portrayed as quote the operator and Roosevelt was sort of this, this puppet. So in a way, uh, while Henry Cabot Lodge probably was annoyed.

laurence Jurdem (57:29.43)
by the fact that he at times was not always consulted or his appointee was not always considered, Roosevelt was doing him a benefit and himself a benefit by showing that both men were playing within bounds, except in terms of things like patronage where Roosevelt would occasionally throw Cabot a carrot, so to speak, but most of the time.

You know, he tried to stay away, tried to distance himself from Lodge and the many political favors that Lodge wanted from him. I'll give you one more anecdote. There was a note that Lodge received about the centennial of the city or the bicentennial of the city of Brookline, Massachusetts. And he asked, he assumed that Roosevelt would naturally write a proclamation.

And he'd said, Oh, I've told the mayor this, and if you can just, you know, rip something off and send, you know, it'd be great. And Roosevelt wrote a letter back pretty quickly. And he said very sternly, he said, my dear man, don't ever ask me for something like this again. I get it all the time from everybody. I don't need to get it from you. And I don't appreciate it. And of course, Lodge was really taken aback because he said, I was only kidding. And now I think.

anybody who knows anything, even the most basic about Henry Cabot Lodge, the man had no sense of humor. He never joked about anything, let alone something as serious as politics. So I think he was really a little bit, it was kind of a brushback in a way, to use a baseball term, you need to step back and you need to give me a little room because I can't have this sort of.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (59:20.68)
Well, and it's interesting and we'll come back in a few moments to talk about another of those bumps in the road in terms of the relationship between Roosevelt and Lodge, but I wanted to take a moment to turn back to something that we were talking about earlier. You had mentioned this with the Lodge bill. And when Roosevelt becomes president, this issue comes up a couple of times in his presidency. Because.

Um, you know, as you say in your book, when the issue comes up in their respective careers, moves that Lodge and Roosevelt make towards supporting civil rights were typically couched in achieving political advantage rather than being a true reflection of their ideologies on the issues. So I was wondering if you would mind taking a moment to talk about what you found in your research with regards to Roosevelt and Lodge's views on equal rights for American people of color.

laurence Jurdem (01:00:19.838)
Yes, it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, these were two men who admitted that they did believe that African Americans had a place in the American family, so to speak, in the American tapestry, and that they should be citizens of the country. But then there was the issue of voting. And again, they didn't have confidence.

in the fact that African-Americans had the ability to control their own affairs. Early on in their relationship, Lajun Roosevelt nominate an African-American from a former congressman, in fact the former speaker of the House of the legislature in Mississippi, to be the chairman of the convention. And the gentleman whose name now escapes me, and I can't remember it.

did not really want this opportunity. And Roosevelt and Lodge got to say, you know what? You are a Republican, you're an American, you need to participate in the process and we need you to move this convention forward. But again, it wasn't something that was done to enhance the reputation of African Americans politically. It was.

done to try to destabilize the nomination of James Blaine. And while this gentleman was successfully elected as president of the convention, and both Lodge and Roosevelt gave these incredibly eloquent speeches, again, we really can't take that as some kind of great sincerity as to their support of the African-American agency. We also had

the moment with Booker T. Washington, where neither Washington nor Theodore Roosevelt believed in removing, both of them believed that segregation remained an important idea, remained an important standard within the United States. Booker T. Washington always very much

laurence Jurdem (01:02:44.922)
or criticized by people like W.E.B. Du Bois for this kind of gradualist view that Washington had where he said, don't rock the boat. Let's just move along, do what we can. We need white America as an ally to help us along. And then we can move very slowly and voting is simply out of the question. However,

Booker T. Washington was also a very powerful political voice in his own right. We can almost say he was an African American political boss in a sense in terms of things like patronage within the African American community. Roosevelt to his credit did hire quite a number of African Americans to serve in the lower reaches of government.

post and various in the postmasters, et cetera, and other positions. But there of course was that situation where he offered Washington the opportunity to have dinner with him in the White House. And of course, the South went completely ballistic. Both Lodge was very supportive of Roosevelt in doing this. And he, you know, Lodge who had, there was no love laws between Henry Cabot Lodge and the...

a gentleman of the former Confederate states, who he absolutely hated and believed were responsible for the carnage and turmoil that had brought the country to virtual ruin from 1861 to 1865. Roosevelt obviously didn't expect the blowback that he received. And obviously,

going back to his sort of lukewarm view on civil rights, never had Washington to the White House again after that. Later on in the, I believe it's the 1904 convention, where again a similar type of bill comes up, or idea comes up about giving African Americans greater agency and the right to vote.

laurence Jurdem (01:05:02.294)
Lodge literally writes to Roosevelt. He says, you know what, this is an idea. It might be a good idea, but it's not a realistic idea, and it's not going to happen. So politics continues to play a role in terms of taking that risk of giving African-Americans their rightful place at the voting booth, all about trying to balance Republican power.

So, you know, one can say what they want about Henry Cabot Lodge and Theodore Roosevelt in terms of matters of race, but in terms of the way I look at it, it wasn't a good one.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (01:05:42.532)
Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting. And again, I think that's something that comes up time and again in your book is how these, these personal views or, or personal tendencies influence their political

their political aims and careers. And, you know, you see this even further into their careers, you know, after Roosevelt leaves the presidency and we get to the 1912 election and there's so much that's been written and focused on in the, how this election impacts and destroys the relationship between Roosevelt and William Howard Taft who succeeded him.

But as you point out, it had an impact on the relationship between Lodge and Roosevelt as well. Because though they had been so close over the years, this election cycle in 1912 led to a split between the two. And as you quoted Lodge as writing at the time, quote, I knew, of course, that you and I differed on some of these points, but I had not realized that the difference was so wide.

So would you mind addressing some of the key points in their respective ideologies that had been a constant over the course of their careers that ultimately caused this rift between Lodge and Roosevelt?

laurence Jurdem (01:07:05.694)
Yes, I think some of it for both men, particularly for Lodge, was political. And some of it was ideological. Lodge was a conservative, a conservative to the core. Granted, he, we could say he was a Birkian conservative in terms of the belief in moving things slowly or gradually in terms of, of legislation, uh, et cetera, Roosevelt, I believe was always a progressive.

Uh, he, uh, was more comfortable, uh, within a progressive environment, even though he would, would constantly, uh, poo the, uh, progressives, uh, progressives wanted him to stand on a progressive platform when he run, when he ran for governor, uh, Lodge is like, don't even think about doing that. Don't even think about going outside the Republican party. You're not going to get anywhere in Lodge and Roosevelt were both political realists in regards to that.

But there were certain things that were going on as the presidency progressed that really unnerved Lodge. For most of the Roosevelt administration, Lodge was really the ambassador to the conservative wing of the Republican party, particularly those money men who were so responsible for donating the money that kept the party in business, so to speak. So when Roosevelt,

did things like the square deal and got up and gave these kind of harangues and powerful oratory moments where he condemned big business and talked about that government needed to play a greater role in examining what these corporations were up to. It really chilled Lodge to the bone. And I have to use that old phrase

that people used when they were talking about President Trump. And they would say, don't listen to what he says, watch what he does. And this is sort of what Henry Cabot Lodge would communicate to the moneyed interests within the Republican Party. And say, look, he's just blowing off some steam. He's not really going to do this and that and this. But there were things that.

laurence Jurdem (01:09:32.042)
really drove Lodge nuts and got him into a little bit of trouble with his constituents. And on one particular occasion, when Roosevelt gave all came and gave a speech about the square deal, Lodge was having dinner staying over at a prominent member of the Massachusetts Judiciary Supreme Court. And the man who was a prominent person in the Republican Party and said, you know, you need to have Roosevelt back off on this square deal.

And Lodge wrote Roosevelt a letter and said, you know, there are people within the Republican Party who are becoming very uncomfortable with what you're doing and what you're saying. And some of this, you know, went right over Roosevelt's head. Sometimes he listened, sometimes he didn't, sometimes he would just, you know, rant that these individuals of great wealth

you know, were essentially had tin ears and really had no clue and didn't have the public touch that he did. And then there were times where he would listen and he would back off. But ironically, when we get to 1912, it is really Henry Cabot Lodge who's responsible for indirectly the destruction or temporary destruction of that relationship because he is the one.

who induces Roosevelt to return to political life. Theodore Roosevelt was very happy in retirement. He was very bitter about the way his presidency had ended, particularly in regards to the way the Republican Congress had handled his second term, where they had really gone out of their way to stymie everything he had tried to do. And when Lodge is writing him repeatedly about Taft and the lack of confidence,

party country has, the party has, and how Roosevelt needs to come back to save the day. Roosevelt's like, why should I? Why should I come back and help these people? They didn't help me. But, you know, again, Lodge is very, a very good salesman and very good at whispering in Roosevelt's ear. And of course, Roosevelt does come back. And then he starts going on his soapbox, so to speak, in places like Kansas and other

laurence Jurdem (01:11:57.57)
parts of the country where he's reflecting the progressive ideas of Robert Lafollette, the Senator from Wisconsin about things like direct election of senators, the fact that members of the judiciary can be recalled by the public if they don't like a decision that comes down from a particular judge. And then Lodge is shocked by this. And he's also shocked by Roosevelt's argument that

the government has the right to confiscate private property if they believe that the eminent domain rule and that they believe that it's necessary for the good of the community or for the nation and Lodge is just like you really just have to quiet down and then when Roosevelt runs for president in the primary with Taft and he continues to

communicate these views, Lodge just completely cuts the relationship off. I mean, he basically says that he can't support or cuts the political relationship off. The personal relationship remains and to Lodge's credit, he really goes out of his way to keep that friendship with Roosevelt going to the point where he literally says,

interfere in this important relationship, which I so value, he still supports William Howard Taft, he still ranges for Taft to win the Massachusetts primary in 1912, something that I do not know if Roosevelt knew about or didn't know about, I was never able to figure or find anything on that. Edith Roosevelt was livid at Henry Cabot Lodge and his good friend and Roosevelt's good friend, Elihu-

Jerry Landry (he/him) (01:13:31.034)
you

laurence Jurdem (01:13:53.25)
Root, both of whom worked on Taft's behalf and used to have nightmares about Elehu Root and absolutely really hated him. And Roosevelt never forgave Elehu Root either, as far as I know. But this was a difficult patch that both men went through. There was a lot of name calling on the part of both of them in terms of the other.

a speech in Massachusetts and said that there is one of your senators was responsible for stealing the nomination from me in 1912. Lodge gets up at one point and says, you know, people are tired of Theodore Roosevelt, they're sick of hearing from him. And eventually, though, unfortunately, they do come back together after Roosevelt is nearly killed in an assassination attempt.

Lodge writes two very heartfelt telegrams and soon they're back together and then they come back together even more so over their mutual hatred of Taft's successor Woodrow Wilson

Jerry Landry (he/him) (01:15:03.444)
And it's just, it's such a fascinating story of the relationship between these two men over the decades and just how it folds into so much of American political history of the time. And so as we're wrapping up our conversation, Lawrence, I want to give you an opportunity to share with the audience, you know, first of all, what was your, what was the most surprising takeaway?

about either of these men or both of them in the course of your research. And also, you know, now that this book is published, coming out, where's your research leading you moving forward?

laurence Jurdem (01:15:50.71)
Well, I loved both Roosevelt and Lodge. I often would think what it would be like to meet them. And I suspect that I perhaps would have had a better rapport with President Roosevelt and Senator Lodge. But I think if I...

talked to Lodge and really kind of knew some things about his positions and bills and speeches. I think that he might have, you know, loosened up a little bit. I was talking to somebody else about Henry Adams and I said, well, wouldn't you just have loved to have been seated next to Henry Adams? And she very kind of dryly said, actually, I'd rather be have been seated across from Henry Adams, not necessarily next to him.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (01:16:36.336)
Hehehehehehehehehehe

laurence Jurdem (01:16:40.086)
But I came to admire both of them. I think the thing that I came to realize about Theodore Roosevelt was that his life was a lot harder than I thought it was. And I'm not speaking materially so much as someone who was really trying to find his way. I think he had a lot of disappointment. I think he was very frustrated in trying to achieve political success. I think he just so resented people who would-

constantly get in his way and dictate to him about what he needed to do. And he was in such a kind of he always seemed to be in some kind of supportive role for such a long time, even when he was governor. He still was not his own man. He wanted to be, but Platt didn't allow him to be. And as police commissioner, he had very little power to do a lot of the things that he wanted.

to do, he was always at the mercy of another master, so to speak. And then when he finally becomes president, then he can really, as he says to John Hay, now I'm really going to let things rip, so to speak, when he's about to be sworn in for the second time, because now there's nobody to tell him what to do. And Lodge, I came to admire as well. As I said earlier, I loved his tenacity. I loved his tenacity.

loved his networking. I even loved his rage. You know, the fact that he was just so kind of comfortable with who he was, that he just didn't care. Certainly in letters as opposed to being, you know, out in public, but who knew over the fact. And I love the fact that, you know, when in 1917, he was confronted by a man, you know, 30 years his junior and accused of being a coward, he punched the guy right in the face. He had no problem.

with that. So I loved the tenacity. I loved the hard work. And I loved the loyalty that existed between these two men. And it really does show you that even at the darkest moments during that 1912 campaign, Lodge really went out of his way to kind of follow that old adage that President Obama used to use. He said, you know, two people can disagree, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be together.

laurence Jurdem (01:19:02.486)
disagreeable. And certainly there were some disagreeable moments, but that friendship held together. And I think that was something Lodge really treasured, as did Roosevelt. And it really does show you that if two men who have a similar vision and are willing to work hard and use their determination and there's opportunity and a moment is right, they really do have the

to change the world, which is what I think Lodge and Roosevelt really did. In terms of my own future work, I am kind of working on something that I had worked on a while ago in regards to the first George H.W. Bush and in terms of presidential character and how important I think the qualities that Bush displayed throughout his life.

were in terms of being reflective of other presidents during the course of our history. And so I'm working on something in regards to that. And then I have an idea about writing a single volume about the formative years of Dwight Eisenhower. So we'll see if any of these come to fruition.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (01:20:20.438)
nice.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (01:20:24.612)
Well, hopefully they do because both of those, you know, they are figures that I've been interested in. Of course, you know, I'm interested in pretty much all the presidents, but Eisenhower and George HW Bush are two that I do find myself coming back to time and again, so as you move along with that, you know, hopefully, um,

A new book will come out of one or both of those. And I'd love to have you on presidencies again to discuss. But in the meantime, for our listeners, this conversation has just scratched the surface of Lawrence's current book, which is the Rough Rider and the professor, Theodore Roosevelt, Henry Cabot Lodge, and the friendship that changed American history. I cannot recommend it enough. It is a wonderful read and Lawrence, I cannot thank you enough.

for your work as well as your time and the insight that you've provided to us, to our audience today. So thank you so much.

laurence Jurdem (01:21:26.722)
Thanks, Jerry. I really enjoyed the conversation, and I really enjoyed how thorough and knowledgeable you were about the book and Roosevelt and Lodge. And I loved your questions. They were terrific.

Jerry Landry (he/him) (01:21:38.868)
Always glad and that's one thing that I, you know, it's, I always enjoy reading presidential history, but to have the opportunity to come up with questions and be able to talk with authors, historians about their work. It's just, it's a wonderful treat. So thank you so much and thank you to our audience.